I'm asking this because I genuinely don't know, but at what point do Tesla shareholders sue the company? Musk's actions, like them or not, are actively hurting the company. There are many people who will never buy a Tesla who otherwise would due to Musk.
European courts could, Latin American as well, possibly Asian for the international markets, which would then be pressure on the American HQ and courts as the international market is, last I checked >50% of their sales. Likely less so now, since they are dropping so heavily in every market (including China, as of this morning, plunging by 49%^1 - China _made_ up ~25% of their sales).
> European courts could, Latin American as well, possibly Asian for the international markets
Musk is a de facto head of state (alongside Trump). All but the most independent courts would be under massive political pressure to yield to him. (At least so long as he’s in Trump’s good graces.)
> What are they gonna do? Introduce tariffs? Annex land from the EU? The US is already a rogue state.
Tariffs can rise arbitrarily, though beyond a certain point it's meaningless as all the trade is smuggled, nobody bothers any more with doing it legitimately.
The Trump administration is currently making threatening noises about annexing land from the EU (and by extension a NATO ally). But it is currently noise, not action, so yes, they may escalate in that way also… or at least they may try to: I have no idea how anyone's military may react to this because the idea of such an act was unthinkable outside of weird dystopian fiction until about January this year.
Yes, in theory basically anything could be securities fraud, and lots of lawsuits like that get filed. Very few succeed.
If shareholders are serious about dumping Musk they can put in board members to sack him and get a new CEO. If they just want a lot of performative legal actions, yea sure file a lawsuit.
>but at what point do Tesla shareholders sue the company? Musk's actions, like them or not, are actively hurting the company.
Claiming that an executive breached his fiduciary duty requires clearing a pretty high bar, far higher than "his actions hurt the company". Practically speaking the best recourse tesla shareholders have is to either sell their shares, or launch a proxy fight.
He relocated to Texas specifically because it was a friendlier judicial environment for him. Even in the incredibly unlikely event this approach worked and the court ruled against him, he'd just relocate to a state that offered him a better deal. There is no accountability in our present system for someone like Elon Musk. Too rich, too connected, too powerful to touch.
Definitely not at the point when they have a car model that is leading in top 5 most purchased new vehicles (not just EVs, we are talking overall) in multiple large markets like EU or US. Which was the case for 2024.
Musk's politics certainly play a part in this, but the bigger story is that Chinese EVs are starting to dominate the Australian market. They're far cheaper at a comparable quality level.
a few thoughts,
1) This is not how investing or investor-board-company process works in modern trading/investing. this is capitalism, not ethical discourse. Past performance is not a guarantor on investment, and you are free to rescind that investment.
2) if one desired to keep their investments in the company they disagree with performance/ethics wise, there is a board that dictates investor funds, trends. They are elected.
In the event of some perceived strife, or new initiative, a board is petitioned by shareholder groups to a point that if there is enough sway, can force a decision on the company.
I do not agree this is ideal^ as dark forces in the market have far more of an effect on it than the actual investments.
The article touches on it a little, but I'd like to know answers to the following questions:
- Are car sales in general down?
- Are other EV makers seeing a corresponding uptick in sales?
- Are ICE vehicles seeing an uptick in sales?
Just knowing that Tesla sales for a specific model have tanked doesn't tell me enough. The article mentions that Polestar and BYD are seeing an increase in sales over the last year, but doesn't say whether the last couple months have seen a higher increase than previously.
> Are other EV makers seeing a corresponding uptick in sales?
Doesn't really look like it [2], but I've not plotted a line chart to see if it's just well distributed. There doesn't appear to be any 1 automaker that is breaking out with Tesla's drop.
> Are ICE vehicles seeing an uptick in sales?
Given the first two, I'd say probably. With sales pretty much the same and no EV brand that appears to have went up my guess is that ICE is where the slack is going.
In Europe it varies by country, but in general Tesla is down while EV sales are up or steady.
> Figures published towards the end of February by the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) showed that Tesla sold just 9,945 units in January, a 45 per cent fall from 18,161 in the same month a year earlier – and despite a 37 per cent growth in overall EV sales.
>Passenger car sales of 12,783 units in January represented a 22.2% decrease from the same period in 2024, SUV sales of 52,748 units represented a 5.9% increase
There's a dip for sure, but not quite the drastic dip of tesla sales. Also note that the number of passenger cars sold is much lower than the number of SUV. A fairly good indication that people are buying SUVs rather than passenger cars.
If you look at the bar graph, the total drop is 89k to 86k. Which represents about a 1% decrease in total sales.
EV sales are up, and this is a market with full Chinese import activity and minimal tariffs - so I'm guessing the big winners are Chinese EVs (narrator: that's correct)
Tesla sell cars in the luxury car bracket in Australia. BYD and MG in the last few years started selling cheaper cars, and now dominate the market. In the last few months several manufacturers have dropped prices and released cheaper models. And more people are competing at Tesla's price point, like Polestar mentioned. So apart from the very real Musk hate from purchasers and their neighbors and family and friends and random vandals, there is now the option to buy more affordable vehicles or choice when buying a luxury car.
Yes. Global EV sales were 1.9 million in Dec 2024, 1.3 million in Jan 2025, and 1.4 million in Feb 2025. This is apparently typical after the holiday spending each year.
> The plunge in Tesla electric vehicle sales has continued into February, according to the latest official data, with combined sales of the Model Y and Model 3 EVs plunging 71.9 per cent in the month of February, compared to the same month a year earlier.
Meanwhile EV sales appear to be UP globally year-over-year (in this case, January 2024 to January 2025)
YEAH! GOAAAALL FOR GERMANY! Compared to February 2014, new Tesla registrations have fallen by a whopping 76%. Only 1,400 Teslas were registered in total.
To put that into perspective: 1,400 units is the production capacity of their Factory in Germany PER DAY.
For February probably not, they might have cared less about the "Heil Musk" stuff than we in Europe did. I guess for March Canada however might make it to the top 5...
At least when it comes to Germany, I can clearly say: No, it's not. An employee of the Tesla dealer for the Frankfurt region told me that he's got "less than 10" people on his list to call once he has the new Model Y in the show room.
In the last couple of years the German automakers completely missed the trend towards EVs had only had a laughable product palette. This also causes them to close a lot of factories in Europe, and that is still happening right now.
But you have to keep in mind that the market for EVs is growing. So, once Tesla closes their factory, Volkswagen & Co will be more than happy to hire those workers.
And of course, with arson attacks on Tesla stuff becoming common over here, the factory might go up in flames soon, anyway.
I would think so. The demand is there, the factories are there, the supply chains are there. So if the European car makers now gain traction in the EV market, it would make sense to just re-cycle existing resources.
I'm sure a big chunk is people not wanting to associate with Musk (not many fans over here) or attract vandals. But it is worth noticing that a number of competing cars have recently dropped prices, trying to compete with BYD and MG who are completely dominating the AUS EV market. Tesla is in luxury car territory, along with the majority of EVs.
Reminds me of the situation in Canada[1], which was due mostly to a government subsidy being phased out but certainly also in part "personality driven". In general it seems like local subsidies are a huge driver of the global EV market share [2] - one hopes that the EV market will be able to stand on it's own one day and on it's own merits the technology will reach price parity with fossil fuels.
Oh, and specific to Tesla from a WP article last week:
“ About a third of Tesla’s $35 billion in profits since 2014 has come from selling federal and state regulatory credits to other automakers. The credits are given to automakers that meet certain standards, including selling a certain percentage of zero-emission vehicles. Tesla is the largest seller of these credits to automakers that don’t meet the standards and want to avoid paying a fine.”
Europe, Canada, Mexico and everyone else getting the Trump & Musk heel turn should seriously consider special tariffs on all Teslas and super-premium registration charges on their luxury models. In the same way that TikTok is a security threat to America, Teslas and Starlink are threats to the free world.
(I’d also throw in a ban on domestic content owners providing training material to xAI, but I’ll admit I have a vindictive streak.)
Teslas already have an always-on cell modem. Unless you live in the boonies, adding starlink isn't going to make you more trackable than you are already.
> nothing prevents the mad man from using Tesla cars and Starlink for surveillance
Forget surveillance: refusal to support. (Bricking has no plausible deniability.) If you don’t do X, Y and Z I will be forced to geoblock your country; if that causes cars to stop driving so be it.
Never happened, Starlink wasn't turned off anywhere, it was just bad media reporting and social media bias. He refused to turn on Starlink over Crimea on a last minute request from Ukraine. It'd have meant violating US sanctions on providing services to Russian controlled territory.
> never happened, Starlink wasn't turned off anywhere
Based on Musk’s comments, he just kneecapped them in favour of Moscow [1]. Negotiators are currently using Starlink as leverage to Molotov-Ribbentrop Ukraine’s mineral resources [2].
That said, Musk is a liar. So absent a statement from Kyiv absolving him (I honestly haven’t looked for this), the best we can say is we don’t know.
Musk's support of Trump looks increasingly like it will start WW3, with Trump personally threatening action against several current NATO allies.
Musk would be correct that private individuals should not have this much power, should not take decisions about what is and isn't legal — which makes it even more hypocritical for him to have had a fight with Brazil or the UK government or offer support for any political party in Germany, let alone to be wielding a chainsaw on-stage at CPAC, being the public face of DOGE, taking his kid into the Oval Office to have a chat with the press, etc.
They already did cut it once around the Black Sea coast and prevented an attack on some Russian ships in the region. Something that USAID was investigating Starlink for (and I'm sure this next part is a total coincidence /s) and USAID was one of the first targets of the DOGE purges.
They may have. Musk denies it. Kyiv doesn’t, to my knowledge, seem to have pressed it. Can’t quite say it’s not true. But can definitely say it’s not known.
> reality is they are currently helping and noone else is in the same regard
Eutelsat’s OneWeb and Geo are currently providing services in Ukraine [1][2].
Their leadership, meanwhile, isn’t trying to undermine Kyiv at home and abroad.
> those articles linked below are about "talks" and proposals
Nope. The proposals are for expansion. Eutelsat currently provides service in Ukraine.
(Out of curiosity, where did you read that Starlink has a monopoly on satellite internet in Ukraine? Always helpful to keep track of bad sources.)
> those companies highlighted don't even have the capacity
Sure, Europe fucked up by relying on Musk. Now they have the opportunity to fix it. In the meantime, it’s insanity to divert any resources to Musk that could go to building a competitor, even if heavily subsidised. (U.S. ignoring WTO rules means dumping and state-support rules no longer apply.)
> How exactly are they a threat to the free world?
First by playing 'free market' and getting bilions in incentives from taxpayer money.
And then they will be a threat by the time Tesla will lock you into a subscription model and starlink sell your data to the government the first time it will feel threatened.
Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.
i say this as a tesla owner, knowing that getting rid of my tesla doesn't necessarily help anything..... and having bought my car despite Elon (certainly not because of him) a handful of years back.
Tesla's value gives Elon his money which also gives him his power. For obvious reasons Elon is VERY associated with Tesla. People are viewing purchasing a Tesla as giving Elon money, which isn't totally wrong but isn't as direct as people as saying either.
In the case of Tesla the threat is Elon himself and how he chooses to use his power. The cars (in my opinion) are not a threat IRT surveillance etc. I think its easy enough to cover the cameras etc. Of course I can be wrong, as I often am.
In the case of Starlink.... being able to use communication and internet access during an emergency to make money, or use it for influence is pretty powerful. particularly as the US govt (which Elon is a part of) pivots towards an alliance with Russia, starlink is a massive liability that Ukraine cannot count on AT ALL. Nothing is stopping Elon from pulling access to starlink at the behest of Putin. America is already pausing anti-russian activity IRT cyber attacks etc under the guise of "good faith during active negotiations". Why wouldn't starlink be next? Why can't starlink be used to suppress access to things. Remember the stories about ISPs injecting ads into content that they didn't own? Why can't starlink just start serving propaganda and misinformation instead of actual content?
These are a threat because they are not being used for the good of humanity and civilization. Elon has deluded himself into thinking that he knows what is best for the world and is using his power/money/influence/technology to assert those ideas and opinions onto the world.
Until we have literally any evidence to the contrary, Elon, Trump, and Putin can all be named interchangeably
my phone is with me, netflix has streaming data... meta has my instagram data. the data is all over, and I'm confident that its for sale across the board
Starlink isn't helping helping Ukraine out of the goodness of Elon's heart; he's being paid millions of dollars to provide a service. It's just another business deal for him that he can spin into good publicity as well. His public comments have made it very clear that he doesn't care about the Ukrainian people. Given that he's co-leading an administration that is completely aligning itself with Putin I don't expect that to continue for much longer. As soon as the payments stop, and possibly even sooner, that service will be gone.
The Tesla factory in China was closed for a good chunk of January and February to retool for the new Model Y. So a February dip was expected. We'll have to wait a few more months for accurate numbers out of China.
Which will result in similar headlines, I'm sure. Chinese EV's are super competitive, and Trump starting a trade war with China is not going to work out well for Tesla.
Are there any other carmakers with anything close to SFSD? People love to hate and act as though SFSD doesn't work, but SFSD v13 has driven ~95% of the miles on my model 3. From the driveway to the office and back, SFSD drives the car with minimal input. I would love to switch to a different manufacturer without giving up the huge convenience.
Either way, I certainly won't buy another Tesla while Elon is running the place.
No, I think v13 on HW4 is best in class, apart from the obvious (non-consumer operations) like Waymo.
But I think automomy is not enough to draw people to a new vehicle. Tesla has a branding/advertising issue with v13 because people conflate it with Autosteer (which isn't FSD), or they had a bad experience with v11/v12 and write it off completely, or they have a HW3 (majority of people) - which FSD isn't as great on.
It certainly seems as though many people's opinion of FSD is very much out of date. I recall riding in a friend's M3 in 2020 when he attempted to demonstrate FSD (or whatever it was called at the time). We didn't make it more than a minute or so before he had to deactivate it. When I picked up my M3 years later, I assumed FSD would still be mostly vaporware.
I honestly can't believe how good is has gotten. It's not perfect and I maintain full awareness of what it's doing, but it performs incredibly well 95% of the time. It's really nice to feel like you're being driven by a mostly competent driver everywhere you go. Really, it makes about the same number (or less) of mistakes as other people I've driven with, but the mistakes are of a different sort, and after a while you develop an intuition of the situations that are going to challenge it.
It's not perfect and I maintain full awareness of what it's doing, but it performs incredibly well 95% of the time.
This right here is why it's wildly dangerous and irresponsible. The vast majority of drivers are nowhere near this conscientious, and 95% is a horrible level of reliability for a two ton machine that is out on the road driving around other people.
I'm embarrassed for the engineers who contribute to this unethical shitshow. And I'm disgusted at the regulators for allowing this.
I've tried SFSD on our Model 3 a few times. Neither my wife nor I liked it and we turned it off after a few days. We don't do much highway driving though.
(it may not have been v13; we tried it first about a year ago, then again 2-3 months ago)
tesla had an early run, there is a lot more competition, their share price is holding well at the same levels its been for the last 3-4 years, bar some peaks and troughs, for good reason
