My family was working class not even lower middle class.
And even we flew a few times in the late 80s early 90s, and we had a (probably used) Tandy computer that hooked up to the living room TV.
People have different priorities. We certainly couldn’t have afforded a current generation top of the line computer, and we couldn’t have flown every year. But an older computer and the occasional flight were firmly attainable to anyone with stable job if they really wanted them.
Yes, obviously a Tandy or C64 in 1990 is different, but anyway this thread is beating a dead horse. I regret even starting it. It's the kind of off-topic nonsense that HN is filled with these days.
I’ve heard this thesis a lot, but it’s almost always from the result chasers.
It doesn’t resonate with me because I am a result chaser. I like woodworking because I like building something that never existed before. I don’t mind using a CNC router or a 3 printer to help me out. I don’t care about the process, I care about the result. But I care deeply about the quality of the result.
I don’t care about the beauty of the code, but I do care that nearly every app I load takes longer than it did 15 years ago. I do care that my HomePod tells my wife it’s having trouble connecting to iPhone every 5th time she adds something to the grocery list. I care that my brokerage website is so broken that I actually had to call tech support who told me that they know it’s broken and you have to add a parameter to go back to the old version to get it to work.
I care that when I use the Claude desktop app it sometimes gives me a pop up with buttons that I can’t click on.
I’ve used Claude and Cursor enough to have what I think are valid opinions on AI assisted coding. Coding is not the bottleneck to produce a qualify product. Understanding the problem is the biggest bottleneck. Knowing what to build and what not to build. The next big one is convincing everyone around you of that (sometime this takes even more time). After that, it’s obsessively spending time iterating on something until it’s flawless. Sometimes that’s tweaking an easing value until the animation feels just right. Sometimes that’s obsessing over performance, and sometimes it’s freezing progress until you can make the existing app bulletproof.
AI doesn’t help me with these. At least not much. Mostly because the time I spend coding is time I spend understanding, diagnosing, and perfecting. Not the code. The product.
It does help crank out one off tools. It does help me work in unfamiliar code bases, or code bases where for whatever reason I care more about velocity than quality. It helps me with search. It helps me rubber duck.
All of those things does boost my productivity I think, but maybe somewhere in the order of 10% all in.
> AI doesn’t help me with these. At least not much. Mostly because the time I spend coding is time I spend understanding, diagnosing, and perfecting. Not the code. The product.
It can actually help a lot here too.
In fact I rarely have AI author or edit code, but I have it all time researching, finding edge cases I didn't think about, digging into dependencies code, finding ideas or alternative approaches. My usage is 90% of the time assisting with information gathering, criticizing (I have multiple reviewer skills with different personas, and I have multiple LLMs run them), refining, reviewing.
Even when it comes to product stuff, many of my clients have complicated business logic. Talking multi-tenant-company warehouse software where each process is drastically different and complexity balloons fast even for a single one of them. It helps to connect the dots between different sources of information (old Jira task, discord dumps, confluence, codebase, etc).
And it can iteratively test and find edge cases in applications too, same as you would do manually by taking control of the browser and testing the most uncommon paths.
I would do much less without this assistance.
I really don't get why people focus so much on the least empowering part (code), where it actually tends to balloon complexity quick or overwhelm you with so much content and edits that you can't have the energy to follow while maintaining quality.
Yeah I’ve used it for that and it use useful. But it’s kind of like listening to a math audiobook vs working out math problems. I still need to work out the math problems to really understand what’s going on.
I’m also nervous about the inevitable cognitive decline of relying on AI to explain everything to me.
You added several paragraphs after I responded, but I never said it was black and white. I said it wasn’t sufficient. By which I mean you still need to read the code, and that making changes to the code is even more beneficial for understanding.
> Coding is not the bottleneck to produce a qualify product.
I've been saying this too. The 10x engineer stuff simply cannot make sense unless previously you were spending 90%+ of your day just writing coding and now that's dropped to single digits because AI can generate it. If you spent 20-30% of your day coding before and the rest thinking about the problem, thinking about good UX, etc, then AI coding assistances mathematically cannot make you a 10x engineer. At a push they might make you a 2x engineer.
Given this I think I realised something earlier about my own output... I'm probably just a unusually good coder. I've been doing this since I was a kid so writing and reading code is basically second nature to me. When I was a young teen I would literally take my laptop on holiday with me just so I could write code - I was just that kind of person.
So I've basically always been the strongest or one of the strongest coders on any team I've been on. I very rarely have to think about how to do something in code. It's hard to think back to a time when code was a significant bottleneck for me.
However, my output was never really faster than anyone else when it come to shipping, but the quality of my output has always been wayyy higher. And I think that was because I always spent a lot more time thinking and iterating to get the best result, while other people I work with spent far more time writing code and just trying to get something they could PR.
My problem now is that the people I work, some of whom can't even read code, are able to spit out thousands of lines of code a day. So this forcing me to cut corners just to keep up with the rest of the team.
6-12 months ago I'd get at least 2-3 calls a day from people on my team asking for help to write some code. Now they just ask the AI. I haven't had someone ask me a coding related question in months at this point.
I find this frustrating to be honest. I'm seeing bad decisions everywhere in the code. For example, often a change is hard because it's a bad idea. Perhaps a page on a website doesn't really look great on mobile or desktop. Previously you would have had to think about how you could come up with a good responsive design and implement the right breakpoints. But now people can just ask Claude Code to build a completely different page for mobile, so they do. For a human that would be a huge effort, even if someone who stupid enough to think that was a good idea they probably be forced to do something thats easier to maintain and implement, but an AI? Who cares. It works. The AI isn't going to tell you no.
I know the quality of code is dropping. I see the random bugs from people clearly not understanding what Claude is writing, but if they can just ask the AI to fix it, does it even matter?
> All of those things does boost my productivity I think, but maybe somewhere in the order of 10% all in.
I'm very much like you. AI doesn't really boost my productivity at all but that's because I care about what I build and don't find coding hard. So AI doesn't really offer me anything. All it's doing is making people who don't care what their building and don't care about the quality of their code more productive. And putting me under pressure to trade quality for velocity.
I know someone who has a friend that works at Anthropic. He says that it’s essentially 2 companies. 1 that vibe codes everything and merges without understanding, and one that spends all their time putting out the fires created by the first company.
I think we’re destined to be #2 for a while. If it gets too bad, my plan is to move into a part of the industry where quality and reliability are non-negotiable. Or start my own company and compete against established players for the smaller customer base that’s willing to pay for quality.
I go out of my way to pay for quality projects even if (and often because) they have fewer features. I think there are probably enough of us to support a lifestyle business in many niches.
I also suspect as vibe coding introduces more bugs (we’ve certainly seen this at my current company) the people willing to pay for alternatives will grow.
> I like woodworking because I like building something that never existed before. I don’t mind using a CNC router or a 3 printer to help me out. I don’t care about the process, I care about the result. But I care deeply about the quality of the result.
Why not outsource it to someone else? That way you do none of the work.
Because delegating doesn’t give me the level of control I want, the kind of people with the quality standards and capabilities I have are extremely expensive, and I like creating things.
If I had access to a factory of apprentices that I had total control of, I probably would outsource more of it. So on the surface it seems like I’d love AI, but these particular apprentices aren’t up to my standards, there are severe limitations on how much I can train them, and I get no joy from teaching them.
You seem to be conflating code quality with product integrity.
All those problems are caused by business decisions, not the developers. You do make a good point though that AI may enable more people to build their own when they can.
The term code quality is overloaded and not really worth discussing without defining exactly what we mean.
But yes many of those problems were caused by business decisions. But engineers are perfectly cable of creating those problems on their own. If an engineer doesn’t realize that the function they called buffers messages in memory because someone made a wrapper function around sendAsync() and called it send(), that’s a code quality issue not a business issue (except as in the broader sense where every problem is ultimately a business issue).
Or if an engineer writes a naive implementation of some algorithm and adds a spinner so that an operation takes 5s to finish when it could be instantaneous if they’d thought about the problem more.
I've heard this opinion a lot before, but in my experience there's a lot more dysfunction behind the scenes when stuff like that happens.
It's the same in other industries too. Someone designs and implements something properly and then it gets into the hands of product people who want to rip half of it out. The business then wants some much cheaper contractors to quickly make those changes without the original engineers involved. The result is a mess.
I’m not going to disagree with you there. A bad engineering culture is usually ultimately caused by other factors. Many times that is just hiring bad engineers though. Such that even if business got out of the way, the engineers still wouldn’t make a quality product.
I half agree, but the engineering culture tends to follow from the business culture being presented.
You can't trust any new hires if you have middle managers with no technical experience who only care about business concerns, execs who only care about money, and all your good devs have left the company because they are not allowed to change anything.
The blame game is a massive red flag for everyone actually worth a damn to leave. Complacency, intolerance of disagreement, hyperpragmatism and obsessive focus on measurable productivity, etc. all kill a business by a million papercuts. A business needs room to breathe and the time and desire to think in order to thrive.
If you want new engineers who do good work you have to recognize that existing problems have become intertwined with the way the business currently works. They cannot fix what they cannot discuss. They cannot create when their hands are forced to repeat the motions of the ones they're replacing. All the while, someone rotten in the middle is definitely benefitting from throwing people under the bus and picking up a paycheck.
1. Plenty of people have problems with any screening that requires work on the candidate side but nothing on the employer side. In that regard both of these options are equally bad.
2. Automated code screens usually have an objective right answer. With an AI interview you have no idea what the how you did or how your answers could trigger an LLM to reject you.
And there’s the fact that you have to talk to it like it’s a human which many maybe most people find at least a bit dehumanizing.
I think that’s more of an urban/rural divide than anything else. Most of tech workers living in the sticks have plumbers and electricians and contractors in our social circle because that’s who has money in the boonies.
But until you get to the very top of those professions, the work environment is worse in every way.
You’re working 2x as many hours for 1/4 the pay, you go back to work the day after your kid is born. Your knees are just absolutely fucked. It’s in no way an equivalent job. That’s the primary reason tech workers don’t want to do it.
The skilled trades are better than unskilled work. Better than retail or food service, but they certainly aren’t a replacement for white collar jobs.
The median salaries for skilled trades aren’t great. You can make good money if you are willing to work a ton of overtime, or if you can manage to get one of the very limited union spots in the right city. Or if you become a business owner (and accept the corresponding risk) and mostly manage other skilled employees.
It’s also not a viable solution for more than a small percent of the population. Let’s say AI comes along and forces 25% of the white collar workers out of a job, there is only enough room in the skilled trades to handle a tiny fraction of those displaced workers.
That’s ignoring what massive unemployment does to salaries in the trades. And the fact that to make decent money in the trades you need years of working for peanuts first. And if you think age discrimination is a problem in tech, try breaking into the trades as a gray beard. The entry level jobs are built on the assumption that you are 20 years old and can do 12 hours of hard physical labor without needing a week off to recover.
Again it’s not impossible, it’s just not a solution at any kind of scale.
> Let’s say AI comes along and forces 25% of the white collar workers out of a job
Yeah, this is not going to happen. New job positions will open up instead, and white collar workers will be well placed to fill them since supervising an AI agent swarm is not that different from supervising the work of other humans - which is what white collar workers do as their job.
I disagree. Not all white collar workers are managers, and while I do think AI-supervision will be a growing field, it won't generate anywhere close to enough roles to replace how many ICs are going to be displaced. Companies are going to hit capital & scope resource limits (especially as model companies start extracting more value) way before they hire thousands of laid off white collar workers as additional AI supervisors.
I'm equally dubious about other white collar roles filling the gap, but I'm willing to hear out any arguments. To be honest I'm kind of desperate to hear one that would convince me otherwise..
It’s not about hand crafted code or even code performance.
We know from experimentation that agents will change anything that isn’t nailed down. No natural language spec or test suite has ever come close to fully describing all observable behaviors of a non-trivial system.
This means that if no one is reviewing the code, agents adding features will change observable behaviors.
This gets exposed to users as churn, jank, and broken work flows.
1. Preventing agents from crossing boundaries, creating implicit and explicit dependencies, and building false layers requires much more human control over every PR and involvement with the code than you seem to espouse.
2. Assuming that techniques that work with human developers that have severely impaired judgement but are massively faster at producing code is a bad idea.
3. There’s no way you have enough experience with maintaining code written in this way to confidently hand wave away concerns.
I solve this issue (agent looking at too much and changing too much) with the best abstraction ever invented : files and permissions.
One task is usually composed of 2 input files, a specification and a header file, and the task is to output the implementation and nothing more. Agent user has no other permissions in the file system, has no tools, just output the code that's directed into a file. I run ´make' whenever I update a specification. Token count is minimal.
Do I save time? Not much, but having to specify and argue about everything is interesting, and I trust myself that I'm not loosing any knowledge this way; be it the why or the how.
Absolutely no one in the value chain cares about “how many layers of abstractions your code has - not your management or your customers. They care about functional and none functional requirements
By definition, coding agents are right now the worse they will ever be and the industry as a whole by definition is the least experienced it will ever be at using then.
So many people on HN are so insulted that the people who put money in our bank accounts and in some cases stock in our brokerage accounts ever cared about their bespoke clean code, GOF patterns and they never did. LLM just made it more apparent.
It’s always been dumb for PR to be focused on for loops vs while loops instead of focusing on whether functional and non functional requirements are met
I wouldn’t know sir, because you didn’t address a single lick of it. You went off and argued with some other argument you constructed in your head. I believe we have a name for that. It is an awfully good way to win arguments in your own mind and retain unshakable confidence in your position if that’s your goal though.
My family was working class not even lower middle class.
And even we flew a few times in the late 80s early 90s, and we had a (probably used) Tandy computer that hooked up to the living room TV.
People have different priorities. We certainly couldn’t have afforded a current generation top of the line computer, and we couldn’t have flown every year. But an older computer and the occasional flight were firmly attainable to anyone with stable job if they really wanted them.
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