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No nor does it have logistical capability to deliver even half of the equipment currently being promised/discussed within a time-frame of less then 5-10year.

It's all dependent on the national government voluntarily following the advice of Brussels, and in most cases they don't really have the resources the EU wants them to commit to "The Ukrainian nationalist Cause".


EU has enough logistical capacity, but Russian nationalists like to dismiss EU like some kind of temporary group while they are riding donkeys to battle.


Lets talk numbers, rather then just sling cheap unfounded allegations

The problem with the way they talk at the big conferences is that there is almost no link between the rhetoric of existential crisis and the bills being passed at the national level.

The last numbers from Ukraine was a army of maybe 900k uniformed troops(thats up there with America) and as a response to that army's failure to drive Russia back Germany is talking about raising their armed forces less then a 3rd of that by 2030 thats just not real mobilization and thats my point about not taking the logistics serious.

Were the EU to mobilize as if it mattered to the actual population of the EU it could raise several time the army Ukraine have but nobody is actually suggesting that because the people in charge of the actual policy making don't really believe that Russia is a threat to any of the NATO member states.


> Lets talk numbers, rather then just sling cheap unfounded allegations

> Ukraine was a army of maybe 900k uniformed troops

you have provided only 1 number and it was not about EU.


The reluctance of the EU leadership to so anything materially significant about anything they claim to care about is kind of telling.

It's either that the leadership is so caught up in their own ivory tower bubble of pure rhetoric to realize they havent really put in the logistics to actually affect reality or that they somehow don't really want the consequences of actually changing things.

For this is pretty clear what they need to do to create any real digital sovereignty and yet the seem to not really be willing to take the obvious step of just banning the use of any technology that have any dependency of foreign owned/managed cloud services or closed source products, and ordering their technical staff to start making changes even if it makes stakeholders annoyed, and yet the keep letting companies like IBM/RedHat and Microsoft pretend they can and should be a part of the digital sovereignty transformation project.

We saw the same when safe harbour collapsed and with the cookie directive where rather then doing something effective they found some way to fix it by changing a few words in an mostly unenforced set of click wrap contracts/licenses. .


The discussions shifts across the board but it takes time to shift due to momentum. The EU has many nations and many more companies all making strategic purchasing decisions. US dependence skeptics belittled earlier have now concrete examples and more weight. The shift can already observed in weapons system purchasing but won‘t be limited to those. For better or worse the US has lost its position of trust and is sadly working on cementing distrust for the next decades.


We saw how fast and decisively modern states can move doing covid, so what is being suggested here is that at the end of the day the current leadership of the EU(especially some of the more US loyal smaller states) is not really ready to believe the US wont restore that trust at the next election.

I am from Denmark and it's been interesting seeing our politicians dance around the very plausible direct invasion threats made by the current US president against Greenland, where our PM made strong declaration while her ministry of defense kept increasing it's dependency on American planes ect.

And it's the same story almost everywhere for the digital sovereignty stuff, yes they claim to want it but when the legislation arrives it's nothing and there is no urgency within the technical departments actually running government it to change anything.


Creating digital sovereignty requires economic protectionism, which directly contradicts a core value of the European Union: bringing down trade barriers.

> contribute to solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights [0]

Notably absent from these values are wishes to make the EU more resilient against foreign threats to the global supply chain.

[0] https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...


The EU leadership are a very corrupt group who set themselves up to be open to the highest bidders from day one, and those are mostly US corporations and those of other countries when the US hasn't place sanctions on them.

The antitrust fines they impose on those American companies may simply be regarded as a cost of doing business.

When it comes to being indifferent to the welfare of the general populace, they are just as bad as anything else.


> The antitrust fines they impose on those American companies may simply be regarded as a cost of doing business.

You nailed it right on the head. Those fines are peanuts for big corporations.


But even then they are big enough for these corporations to run and complain to Trump that that big bad EU is punishing them.


Well either that or completely privatize the infrastructure needed to operate those cars like multi-lane roads and parking lots with no mandatory minimums for road width and parking lot size.


I think you underestimate what can be done with actual code because the devops industry seems entirely code averse and seem to prefer a "infrastructure as data" paradigm instead and not even using good well tested/understood formats like sql databases or even object storage but seems to lean towards more fragile formats like yaml.

yes the possix shell is not a good language which is why thinks like perl, python and even php or C got widely used but there is a intermediate layer with tools like fabric(https://www.fabfile.org/) solving a lot of the problems with the fully homegrown without locking you into the "Infrastructure as(manually edited) Data" paradigm that only really works for problems of big scale and low complexity which is exactly the opposite of what you see in many enterprise environments.


Taking the moral argument aside the fact that the largest best funded navy run by the wealthiest country have to call in airstrikes against barely(if at all) armed fishing vessels, that may or may not be smugglers, rather then board arrest and at least make an attempt at tracing the cash flow back to the wealthy businessmen who is organizing/funding the smuggling reeks of weakness and desperation rather then being the signal of strength and competency it's intended to be.

Sure it's a widely understood and often repeated problem with especially western naval and military doctrine that the peace time buildup favors white elephants(battleships, F35s etc) that, as was the case of the British high see fleet of WWII, end up inactive while entire new(often much cheaper and less sophisticated) classes of ships like destroyer escorts or Patrol boats have to be build as replacements. But still the US haven't quite deteriorated so badly yet that it couldn't reacquire whatever boarding capacity got lost in the relentless pursuit of military industrial complex profits quite quickly.


I think a fundamental lack of understanding/humility is the core of this conflict along with Mozilla's long and storied history of creating controversies/problems out of thin air.

The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too.

Firefox is a good browser but is prevented from capitalizing on the skepticism the consumers feel toward the tech sector by Mozilla using the exact same language and dark UI pattern to promote things like pocket that the user-base never asked for, and jump on to the lets enforce the use of AI everywhere that's driving discontent within the proprietary ecosystems, and this is yet another example of this class of behavior from the Mozilla leadership.


It's the mismstch of expectations that causes good communities to create drama. If this was Google, no one would care, as one expects Google to just do what is best for the business. But with companies like Mozilla we expect a bit better. But the truth is they are barely better and the leadership plays by the same rulebook.


People did used to have decent expectations for Google back when they at least pretended to care about the "Do no evil" tagline


Indeed but it feels like a lifetime ago. I miss those days where I would look up to google and their products, as something new, cool and "not-evil".


it's always been marketing


Maybe. But if the founders were at all pre-gold-rush Internet people, sentiments like "don't be evil" seemed (in my impression at the time) more the genuine norm than the exception.


It's pretty clear they've been full evil for a while. It's documented at least back to 2011 but the rest of us didn't clue in for a while after.


"Don't be evil."

"Do no harm" is the doctor thing.


Google burned all that goodwill to fuel their growth. It worked great for them. But now they have none left.


But why does it have to be the case that the leadership of an opensource project have to emulate the desperation and authoritarianism of a potentially stagnant tech sector.

I don't think it's malevolence from the mozilla leadership team but more that if you hang around people who have bet their lifesaving on the success of cloud based LLMs, being cautious and making their use "optional" might begin to sound like a really controversial position even if that's actually what the users/community want from Mozilla.

Firefox market share have been declining and it's not easy to point to any obvious technical problem, so the reason for the decline is likely that the Mozilla corporation keep messing up the narrative by acting like just another Silicon Valley tech firm.


> why does it have to be the case that the leadership of an opensource project have to emulate [...] tech sector.

Because they live in the same places. They go to the same restaurants, they have the same conversations, they have personal friends at FAANG... they live and breath the same ideas, the same opinions, the same perspectives. They are in a bubble, and think "their" org should partake in the same behaviours as all the other companies out there - if anything, because it will be useful for their CVs when they inevitably look for a new job next month or next year. I don't blame them, it's inevitable human behaviour.

Maybe Mozilla should relocate the bulk of their leadership outside the US.


>Maybe Mozilla should relocate the bulk of their leadership outside the US.

They don't even have to leave the state. Just don't be stuck in that same stagnant SV bubble and bring in people with genuine ideas and initiative.


The people running the show are not the people who started and enforce the idea of an open source initiative, that's why. If most of the current administration got ousted tomorrow you'd see them pop up as senior executives in the very companies Mozilla theoretically decries.

Wolves see the community sheep build and then move in under wool coating. Doesn't mean they still are not in fact a wolf.


>The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too.

But of course, they need "competitive" salaries so they can hire "great talent" from the tech sector so that the company doesn't fall behind or something.


How would you develop Firefox?


I'm sure people will come out of the woodwork to tell me just how wrong this is, but say various Linux projects or the kernel seem to have better (better, not perfect) governance structures.

Not being obsessed with rapacious growth, not chasing trends and features that look good on delivery metrics but instead building a stable product would go a long way.

And frankly, for descriptions on what the product should be, standards to implement (or not), and overall strategy for a project that tries to do its best for tech as a whole - Mozillas own writeups are spot-on! They just don't seem to act in accordance with the "vibe" and ideals that blog posts etc. talk about.


You certainly have a style. Much better: how would you run Mozilla/develop Firefox?

Any answer that’s not fully bulletproof immediately rules any other opinions you may hold illegitimate.

/s


There is still the conspiracy theory that Mozilla is mostly a sock puppet by Google by now, mostly kept alive so Google can say that Chrome is not a monopoly.

Behavior like this doesn't do a lot to dispel that theory.


I'm always surprised that stuff like the AI integration isn't done as a pre-installed extension.

If it's Mozilla signed then you could give it extra permissions so it still works the same, but then people who it offends can remove it.

Like how their tab containers system is a (not pre-installed) extension


ehh this reads a bit like the hn comments complaining about sites that don’t work with js disabled

like what percent of firefox users do you think actually care about this?


Given the abysmal market share of Firefox today I think a large percentage of the remaining users do actually care.


No one care about this story at large. It's a pretty bad argument to make among the population that does care. Every HN user can leave Firefox and it'd still be running.

Fortunately, history has shown you don't need a majority of users decrying something to get noticed.


enough to move to zen after 20+ years


I'm sure it's a very small amount, but as well as making me personally happy*, (I feel) it would play into their image as the good guy.

"Do you want the most minimal stripped down version of FireFox? Well you can have it!"

*and after all, isn't that what's really important /s


I think it's in the organization as well. They had really good outreach programs and educational content (though I think that's now gutted) that talked about tech ethics, but their product just follows the same bad behavior.


Mozilla has a real pattern of shooting itself in the foot


I wonder what the Apache Foundation could do with the immense budget of Mozilla.


> Firefox is a good browser

Increasingly it isn’t. It’s crashing 2 or 3 times a day for me now, and video conferencing is barely usable.


Hasn't crashed for me once and I use it daily.


I use Firefox exclusively. Crashes:

  Report ID                                Date Submitted
  bp-5587943e-af6f-47c2-a76c-085760251104  2025-11-03T16:18-08:00
  bp-a96400f2-ce05-46df-a842-d7c960251102  2025-11-01T17:18-07:00
  bp-917e4083-c1d6-492a-b730-61dd70251028  2025-10-28T10:59-07:00
  bp-6556dab8-37ed-4a6e-9aab-965c70251021  2025-10-21T09:46-07:00
  bp-b706c918-4851-4006-95ff-a97a70251008  2025-10-07T21:07-07:00
  bp-769d1eee-2154-4336-a448-7343e0251001  2025-10-01T11:12-07:00
  bp-e8720d2c-bd70-4e20-ac97-7b81f0250926  2025-09-26T10:31-07:00
  bp-086eb3f5-0507-4a0c-8482-b4d890250916  2025-09-16T11:36-07:00
  bp-2aeacd1a-2bd3-4bdb-a748-a3d080250827  2025-08-27T11:10-07:00
  bp-5528185d-592b-486a-922e-e52bc0250821  2025-08-21T14:23-07:00
  bp-1e06d027-b690-45b4-b507-d11e70250815  2025-08-15T15:59-07:00
  bp-d0ecb20a-9a39-459d-b3bf-446df0250807  2025-08-06T20:21-07:00
  bp-208cc026-e144-46e7-a891-aaddb0250804  2025-08-04T08:50-07:00


Been crashing for me and friends for about a week now, mostly on youtube


Blame Youtube for that. It is very much in Google's interest to have Youtube misbehave on non-Google browsers.


No website should be able to crash a good web browser. It's totally a Firefox failure.


Is that tab crashes or whole browser crash? YouTube on Firefox appear to trigger memory leaks of some sort. I get routine tab crashes for that reason too, but not as much browser crashes.


Tab crashes sometimes, other times my browser gets slow and I restart the whole thing


Google has been caught red-handed causing deliberate issues for non-Chrome browsers. Try changing the browser-agent and see if you still have issues.


Firefox and Chrome use the same agent.


That's on YouTube. It doesn't work well on anything now, and hasn't for a long, long while.


Works well on chrome and android. I've never had issues


I've completely avoided Chrome/Edge in the browser wars. I went from Netscape to IE to Firefox and stayed there. I was using it before and after its notorious changes to WebExtensions API breaking many plugins in 2017.

I don't have any crashing issues with it.

I even remember the great "speed test" wars where pages like Lifehacker were measuring how long pages took to load and declared this or that browser the winner for that year.

That being said, the direction their privacy policy is going is concerning and giving me reason to eye alternatives. But from a technical standpoint it's solid on my end.


It’s my primary browser on every device, I use Windows, Linux, and Apple devices daily. I can’t remember the last time it crashed (if ever). I also use a ton of extensions, some of which are a little sketchy (devlopment-wise, nothing morally questionable). Still, no technical issues at all. The behavior of Mozilla, on the other hand, I take plenty of issue with.

Edit: correcting autocorrect.


Why do we want them to donate money rather then time/people.


Why would we even want that, the whole point is to break the monoculture and single vendor dependency not to create an new mostly irrelevant one to be stuffed with has-been and rejects from the national levels the way most of EU's big prestige projects end up being run.

One of the thing that sets EU apart from most federations is that it kind of enables a lot more regional independence in how things are actually implemented while still guaranteeing the rights of the individual citizens, this lead to a lot of dynamism at the local level despite the failings of the central level, and allow this kind of projects to succeed and create paths for others to follow at their own pace.


Maybe both? The EU could have a reference implementation, without mandating its use. The current EU model requires each member state to implement everything from scratch, obviously with subtle incompatibility that never gets fixed.


But doesn't the codeless "infrastructure as code" kind of smell like cargo cult practices, i mean there might be places where having your infrastructure defined as data is a really good thing, but at least in my work i keep hitting roadblocks where i really wish i was writing actual logic in a modern scripting language rather then trying to make data look like code and code look like data, which is what a lot of devops tutorials seem to be teaching.


Things have definitely gotten better.

The problem with the linux desktop was usually that most hardware companies were either not spending any time/effort on non-windows drivers/compatibility or when they did it was a tiny fraction of the effort that went into working around bugs in the windows driver API's.

Today with the failure of windows in both the mobile and industrial control space we now see vendors actually giving a damn about the quality of their Linux drivers.

Today the main factor keeping the enterprise marked locked on windows is the fat clients written around the turn of the millennium, and that's as much a problem for mac adaptation as it is Linux adaptation.

The macs are slick well designed devices that speaks to a huge segment of the consumer market so will eventually find the way into the high cost niches where no specific dependency on legacy software exists but they are too expensive and inflexible to replace all of the wintel system so for Microsoft and it's partners to have their license to screw over the enterprise sector revoked Linux(or FreeBSD) will have to play a role too.


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